Quick question about buying a car

"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa) 01/30/2015 at 10:32 • Filed to: None

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I want an autocross car. To this end I am going to drop $500 to buy a 1993 Honda Civic DX sedan from a friend. It's a complete piece of shit, but it works. My plan is to strip it out completely, cut off everything above the beltline, reinforce it with some pipe to help with lost rigidity, and autocross it. I will be installing basic equipment to keep it road legal (muffler, lights, seatbelt are all that are required in Kansas), but my question is this:

If I wanted to use this as an actual car on the roads, I would have to tag, insure, and register it, correct? Any ballparks how much that would cost? Is it cheaper to put it on my dads insurance alongside the murdersofa?

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 10:37

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Yes, it would need tags, registration, and insurance. As far as how much all that would cost, it's going to be very difficult for anyone to give you an idea because there are far too many factors. State fees/taxes, your driving history/age/gender, insurance provider, available discounts, and your dad's insurance policy information.

That being said it should still be relatively affordable, but I would figure on at least a few hundred more the tags, registration, and at least the first month's insurance.

Louros > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 10:38

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cut off everything above the beltline, reinforce it with some pipe to help with lost rigidity

I've read a lot of stupid shit on this website over the years but this far and away takes the cake.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 10:39

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cut off everything above the beltline, reinforce it with some pipe to help with lost rigidity

?

TwinCharged - Is Now UK Opponaut > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 10:43

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cut off everything above the beltline, reinforce it with some pipe to help with lost rigidity

That seems a bit um. Fiddly. And a tad risky.

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 10:43

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Get s subscription to Grassroots Motorsports. Hang at their website.

I think you need to get a better grasp of exactly what goes into autocrossing. And proper race/hoon prep.

Jonathan Harper > Louros 01/30/2015 at 10:43

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makes ZERO sense

Jonathan Harper > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 10:45

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cut off everything above the beltline, reinforce it with some pipe to help with lost rigidity, and autocross it.

/scratches head

but why?

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Louros 01/30/2015 at 10:50

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It's not that uncommon. If you're going to cage it anyway, why keep the roof and glass unless required by the regs? It's just extra weight at that point since the cage would be stronger anyway.

Raphmoe > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 10:51

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This is a great idea, please make sure to document your build progress.

Übel > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 10:52

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cut off everything above the beltline, reinforce it with some pipe to help with lost rigidity

Dude, what?

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Jonathan Harper 01/30/2015 at 10:52

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Because roadster. Also all of the glass in the car is pretty much trashed and I'd rather have no roof at all. Also because I'm going to hollow out the door panels and weld them closed and it is much easier to get in a car with no roof.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Jonathan Harper 01/30/2015 at 10:52

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Weight savings, particularly above the center of gravity. If it's going to be caged anyway, why not remove a couple hundred pounds of steel and glass that has now been made redundant? It's not that uncommon.

Louros > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/30/2015 at 10:52

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When was the last time you saw a car at an autocross with everything above the beltline lopped off? It's not common at all.

Raphmoe > Louros 01/30/2015 at 10:52

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SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Louros 01/30/2015 at 10:53

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A couple of weeks ago. Two cars. One was a completely stripped and caged Miata (think exocet, but no-cost), and the other is a completely stripped and caged MR2.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > TwinCharged - Is Now UK Opponaut 01/30/2015 at 10:53

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It's early unibody, so I'm not sure how flip-floppy it will be without a roof, but I'm just basically trying to make the lightest street-legal Civic i possibly can.

Raphmoe > TwinCharged - Is Now UK Opponaut 01/30/2015 at 10:53

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the juice will be worth the squeeze, I love this idea.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 01/30/2015 at 10:54

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I've always wanted a roadster. Also, lightness.

crowmolly > Louros 01/30/2015 at 10:54

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All the stars to this man please.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/30/2015 at 10:55

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Precisely. Not only am I caging it, but the doors are getting hollowed out (no latch mechanism, winders, window, etc.) and welded closed, and I'm planning on caging it anyways so might as well take off the roof.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 01/30/2015 at 10:56

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I'm hoping $1000 can get me rolling. Most of what I want to do to the car is just removing stuff from it which costs nothing, so I should be able to make decent headway on this project with minimal monetary investment.

crowmolly > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/30/2015 at 10:56

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The word "pipe" is what is most worrisome.

If you are talking about putting a full cage in that's a different story, and it's also not cheap.

Übel > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/30/2015 at 10:57

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There is one key difference between roof-deleting a Miata/MR2 and doing it to a $500 civic that I think you're overlooking.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 10:57

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The most expensive part will be the tubing for the cage. We're building a cage for my buddy's E30 right now, and it was $500 in tubing.

crowmolly > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 10:58

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It will be very limp. The roof is important. You have to temporarily reinforce it before cutting and then cage it before removing any bracing.

Jonathan Harper > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 10:58

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The glass I understand but the roof will provide a great deal of rigidity, only some of which can be recouped with caging.

Übel > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 10:59

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The answer is very. Very fucking flip floppy. You're going from a cardboard box to a sheet of paper, basically.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > crowmolly 01/30/2015 at 11:00

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He's talking about a cage.

Louros > Übel 01/30/2015 at 11:01

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Bingo.

Jonathan Harper > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/30/2015 at 11:01

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You can still save a ton of weight without removing the roof.

Which is better...saving a few more pounds on an already pretty light and stripped down car but having to majorly re-reinforce the interior to counter for what I can only imagine would be a very wobbly chassis, or just keep the roof, add a cage, and have a very nice tight rigid little auto-X machine?

I know what I'd do.

crowmolly > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/30/2015 at 11:04

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Well, in that case I'd say precision will be key. Otherwise you can end up with a noodled chassis that's permanently fixed into distortion and sag.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Jonathan Harper 01/30/2015 at 11:06

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The cage is the major reinforcement, especially if connected to the strut towers, which is what I'd do on a car that gutted. I don't see the point in keeping a roof if it's a stupid cheap beater that's only being built for track use. The only reason to keep the roof at that point would be for shade and keeping dry. I'm sure that a properly built cage will make the chassis stiffer without the roof than it would be without a cage but with the roof.

AM3R shamefully returns > Raphmoe 01/30/2015 at 11:08

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I'm gonna have to use that phrase in my daily life.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > crowmolly 01/30/2015 at 11:08

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Yes, absolutely, but for the price, I would think that the experience would be the best thing about the project. I wouldn't expect the finished product to be terribly good, butwho gives a shit about a 20 year old Civic DX? It's a disposable car.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Übel 01/30/2015 at 11:10

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Like what? I'm talking about an MR2, not MR2 Spyder. It was a hardtop before he chopped it. The Miata is a backbone chassis, which means that the body shell provides a significant portion of the structure's strength. Take that away, and you've got a wet noodle.

Jonathan Harper > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/30/2015 at 11:11

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Right. Key words here: properly built cage .

Do you really think the kid buying a $500 Civic with plans to hack the roof off is going to buck up for a properly built cage?

Plus, while the cage is a major reinforcement, so is the roof. Even though it doesn't seem like much just the box-ish shape of a sedan provides a lot of chassis rigidity. Yes, the cage will help a lot, but so will having a roof.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 11:11

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Then buy a damn roadster.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Jonathan Harper 01/30/2015 at 11:12

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No, I don't think he'll shell out for a pro built cage, but I also think that a 25 year old civic that will be primarily used for autocross is the perfect thing for a kid to play with. It's a disposable car. I'm sure it will be fine.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Übel 01/30/2015 at 11:14

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Yes, that is currently being pounded into my head by several others. Roofless would still be cool though :/

Jonathan Harper > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/30/2015 at 11:16

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Ya perfect, with a roof.

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 11:17

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http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/1…

Read through all the articles on this page. Start at the bottom.

Learn how to do it RIGHT.

Übel > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/30/2015 at 11:20

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Because an MR2 is two structural boxes connected by about 2' of roof and floor, whereas a 1993 Honda civic is one box attached to another box, and he's trying to take away all the structure of that second box and turn it into tupperware. Boxes are strong, tupperware is not.

And the Miata never had a structural roof in the first place, so it is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > Louros 01/30/2015 at 11:22

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I'll go further, I have NEVER seen it in 20 years of going to events.

Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 11:25

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Have you looked into what crazy class this is going to put the car into? Or even if cutting the roof off a car is allowed for autox, even with putting a cage in? (You're going to need a real cage, not just some pipes here and there...) You're going to be in some crazy full on racecar class, and if you're a novice, you're going to be miserably spanked. Cages aren't cheap, you're looking at least a grand in parts and labor. Add to that the race seats, harnesses and other safety equipment that comes with a cage, and you're going to be around $1,500. It's also a miserable idea to daily a caged car. Harnesses are not legal on the street, and it's a very not smart idea to use stock belts with a race seat. I'm not sure cops would take kindly to a car with an exposed cage driving around, since it literally screams you are a racer.

I'm not trying to scare you away from this, but just think it through some more. There's a lot of prep and planning that goes into a build like that.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Übel 01/30/2015 at 11:30

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The Miata's not irrelevant because the body shell's gone. It's not a caged car with the rag top cut away, it's just the backbone chassis reinforced with a cage, so it's exactly the kind of thing we're talking about.

Trunk Impaired 318 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 11:32

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You don't need to cut the roof off to have a fast civic. Last year a pair of guys showed up in what looked like the most riced out civic I've ever seen, massive wood front splitter and rear spoiler, completely stripped interior, basically no exhaust and flames all over. They were each less than 1.5 seconds behind the fastest kart and absolutely demolished PAX

crowmolly > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/30/2015 at 11:45

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If you half ass this you can end up with something that's nothing more than a mess.

I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't do it. In fact, just the opposite- as long as you take your time and do it right. By that I mean mount the tubes in the right places, use the floor plates where you have to (probably everywhere), take the time to get your angles right, etc.

You are also aware that you will need 5 pt harnesses, right?

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > crowmolly 01/30/2015 at 11:52

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Well, it's not my car or project, so not my problem either way. I'm just defending Jake because everyone jumped on him about how stupid of an idea it is, and while I agree that it probably won't end up that great, it should be fun and informative and next time he'll do better. It doesn't seem like he's expecting to end up with a car for chasing FTD, but yeah, a 5 or 6 point harness is definitely a must for this kind of project along with a single piece seat.

Übel > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/30/2015 at 11:55

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What?

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Übel 01/30/2015 at 12:00

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The roof specifically is irrelevant. We're talking about structural stability. A Miata uses a backbone chassis, which is kind of a weird hybrid between body-on-frame and unibody in which the drivetrain is its own weak chassis, and the body bolts onto that to reinforce it. Pull off the body and you've essentially got a Miata suspension and drivetrain like so:

The gutted Miata I'm talking about is basically the backbone chassis reinforced with a tube-frame and no body, so it's entirely relevant to this discussion.

Übel > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/30/2015 at 12:09

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It's that second part that I needed. I'm not arguing whether or not it's possible to do what Murdersofa suggests. Basically anything is possible with fabrication skills, time, and money. I'm arguing that this is a pretty silly endeavor for someone on a shoestring budget with presumably no fabrication skills (if he had them, he wouldn't be asking oppo about attempting this) to attempt. It's not a simple matter of just lopping the roof off the Civic, it's a pretty significant undertaking.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 01/30/2015 at 12:40

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Damn that is fascinating. Thanks for the link

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Trunk Impaired 318 01/30/2015 at 12:42

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The wood front splitter is definitely an idea I've been looking into. Also, that sounds like the most amazing thing ever.

crowmolly > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/30/2015 at 12:45

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This isn't exactly a muffler install or suspension upgrade. It is a big undertaking. I'm sure there's a lot that can be learned but it's a decent amount of money to pay for the lessons. And there is a chance that you can, say, end up with a distorted car that won't drive straight. Or something like that.

Raphmoe > Jonathan Harper 01/30/2015 at 12:52

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What cars have you actually worked on?

Jonathan Harper > Raphmoe 01/30/2015 at 13:00

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Not many, but I've seen a few race cars take shape, and none of them had chopped roofs.

This is not about experience, this is about simple physics.

Raphmoe > Jonathan Harper 01/30/2015 at 13:01

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YET.

Jonathan Harper > Raphmoe 01/30/2015 at 13:03

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Hah, yes. Yet.

Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > Trunk Impaired 318 01/30/2015 at 13:18

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My friend co-drove an orange Civic with taped on tiger stripes. It was amazing, and also oddly fast.

Trunk Impaired 318 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 14:01

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wood is great, its cheap and strong which is perfect for track use since if you go off your splitter is toast.

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/30/2015 at 15:30

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I have known Tim and Rennie and those guys for over 20 years. They know how to get it done on a budget and do it by the rulebook. They have the best car magazine in the country for real car heads. You wanna read about shit you will never buy? Car and Driver, etc are for you.

You wanna play the game of car hooning for real? Grassroots Motorsports is where you go.

Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/30/2015 at 18:34

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The problem is he flat out said it has to be street legal, which means he's going to be driving around in it...

Yes, if it's a track car that's going to be trailered everywhere, go for it. Hack it up, weld it up, see what happens. But since he said he wants to be able to drive around, cutting the roof off it just a horrible idea.

DasWauto > Louros 01/31/2015 at 13:46

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There is a good reason his car has been on /r/justrolledintotheshop before.